Introduction 

Nayantara Intro: Hello Everyone, and welcome back to episode 2 of The Equalizer. My name is Nayantara and I have beside me here, Yvette. For those of you who may not know, Yvette and I are Master’s in Public Policy Candidates at McGill University’s Max Bell School of Public Policy. The Max Bell school has been supporting us throughout this podcast and enabling us to engage in important conversations with policy experts, civil society leaders, and other professionals on creating policies that humanize, empower, and better bridge the gap between the expectations and the realities of the people. 

Today we have with us Elli Dahnavi. Elli is a university teacher, storyteller, and public educator, who has been actively engaged in the community to raise awareness about interpersonal and systemic discrimination. She is currently the Executive Director of the Center for Race and Culture in Edmonton, Alberta. Here, Elli is committed to building equitable relationships in line with CFRAC’s mission to advocate and support individual, social and systemic change to address racism and discrimination and increase intercultural understanding. Welcome, Elli.  

Elli: Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here. Thank you for this conversation. I’m really excited.  

Questions 

1. Nayantara: To start with, could you explain the vision behind CFRAC and the work that you do there? How does it promote equity, diversity, and inclusion? 

Elli: That's a great question. Before I answer that, I just want to share something with you. You've seen these town halls and council meetings that are open to the general public, right? These consultation sessions that policymakers organize, and I remember I was working with a group of leaders in one level of government, and they were saying that “we already have these systems in place, but the people you are talking about they don't show up”. And I said exactly because showing up, going to a consultation meeting that happens at noon or happens after work hours requires the resources to show up. You need to be able to afford to show up. Once you have a system of support, it is financially possible, then you show up. And you share your voice and perspective. What I said was “why don't you go where they are?” There are ethnocultural organizations that are gathering places, faith-based places, where these communities come together. Why don't you go there? Why don't you take the time to build relationships and build trust? That takes time and it’s also an example of inclusive, equitable practice, right? Because imagine, a new immigrant who is working two or three minimum-wage jobs, they cannot afford childcare, there are two partners covering for each other and yes, you have concerns about these new proposals, about some of the services in this city, and guess what? You cannot show up and share your perspective because you have too much on your plates. But you are part of a community of support that you go to and, I know this is maybe before the pandemic, but a faith-based organization that you're a part of and that newcomer agency that you get services from. What if policymakers actually go to these places? How about that?  

And then to your question, I think the work of policymakers should be rooted in the knowledge and experiences of the communities they serve. And when it comes to policies and government documentation, government talk is academic language. It can be terrifying for people. It can be difficult, if you're not part of that system, it sounds overwhelming if you want to navigate that. I think it is the responsibility of policymakers to build those bridges between governments and diverse communities. 

Elli: That's a great question. The common practice in the non-profit sector is that what we do is generally informed by the needs, the realities, and the challenges, of the communities that we serve. So, basically, the first steps are based on anecdotes; based on the conversations that we have. If it keeps coming up, right? So, for instance, when we designed Race on Respect, which is an educational resource for youth. How did that come up? We were working with teachers and with educators and based on their knowledge, based on their experience, we understood that it wasn't very helpful to lecture teenagers. It was their experience that it was challenging to ask these teenagers to sit there and listen to a long boring presentation on human rights. So, the feedback or the anecdotal information was, could we have a resource that is interactive and based on a resource that can gauge the participants, youth, without us lecturing at them? That was the initial idea behind that project.  

What happened is that you usually go to a funder. Before going to the funder, you usually reach out to experts in the field, to community organizations that have after-school programs, or the educators and teachers in high schools and junior high, and say “this is our observation. That is what we have heard and what do you think?” You gather that data. The data is more based on those stories and there's so much value in those stories. Then you seek funding and if everything is successful usually what we do. There is the first phase of collecting data, of doing focus groups, reaching out to the community, sitting with youth. And that's where collaboration and partnership mean a lot to us. So, we reach out to our connections in the community, other organizations that have after-school youth programs, right? We reach out to them and say, “can we come in and talk with the students in particular programs?” We reach out to youth educators, we reached out to cultural brokers, collect that data collect that information, and then as we develop the resources, as we design a training program, it's research-based.  

But as I mentioned, it's rooted in the knowledge of the community. We always form these advisory committees, people who are compensated for their time. They sit around the table. These are community leaders, these are natural leaders, and you have youth representation if it is a youth program. The idea is that this is a very holistic approach to program development. That's our approach. That's how we have worked with community members, with other community organizations, in the development, design, and implementation of our programs and initiatives. 

Yvette: That is such an important approach, especially in policymaking. It’s not only important to have community voices heard but also valued. Now, there exists this gap that needs to be bridged in many different areas. Now, here is my last question to you. We are part of a new generation of policymakers, tired of the status quo, yearning for change, yearning to help bring about change. Sometimes, this seems and feels impossible. What advice would you offer us? Young policymakers looking to bring new, innovative, and creative approaches to policymaking and problem-solving. 

Elli: That's a good point. Back to the unmarked graves, we've been hearing from our indigenous relatives. They are saying “why are you shocked? We've been talking about this for years. Why are you shocked now?” And back to that idea of reacting to an incident. What I'm talking about is, if you are in a place of power privilege, the question is “OK, now that you know this, now what?” Anti-indigenous policies and anti-indigenous racism within systems, organizations, and social structures have been affecting our indigenous relatives. So, what can I do as a non-indigenous person? Yes, I've posted about it, and when I say “I”, I mean anyone. I’ve shared this on Facebook and I feel much better about myself, you know? That's where I want to challenge people. If you're not a racialized person and you were moved by the murder of George Floyd, if you were moved by the murder of that racialized family in London, ON, the next step is “OK, this is a reality. I need to educate myself but what else can I do? How can I advocate for change? How can I hold my elected representatives, the politicians at different levels of government, how can I hold them accountable?” That's what I meant.  

And then back to your question about these challenges and how what we do about these challenges. We are a small organization. And as a team, we try to focus on our capacity and the smallest steps we can take in different areas to be actually part of the solution. One is developing and designing programs that benefit the racialized communities; programs that empower them, that benefit them directly, advocate for racial equity by communicating with different levels of governments, by serving on different coalition groups that raise awareness about certain issues, that go to the school system and ask for accountability. We support racialized communities to have access to resources. We support that process, that's part of what we do.  

The other is with the general public. Sometimes people just simply don't know. Shaming and blaming people for not knowing, I think that is not the solution. So, what we do through some of our initiatives is “hey, let's create this platform like challenging discrimination”. It's an initiative that we started right after the pandemic last year where we invite community leaders, scholars, artists, to talk about discrimination and different aspects of it. Let's inform the general public. Let’s create a space where people can say “these are the realities, these are the facts, these are the challenges, and here are some of the solutions.” And that has been a space for many non-racialized people. They show up, they listen, they learn, they take the roundtable, the recorded session, to their teams, they have further conversations, they come back to us, and they say “thank you so much. This was the beginning of a shift in our organization”. Another aspect of the work that we have done is that we have provided training, consultation, and coaching to leaders. We have worked with leaders in the municipal government, in large umbrella organizations. What we do is support them to understand systems of inequity. We also build bridges between the history and the impact of their organization. Or assist the government with their responsibilities and how they can support racial equity or how they can support social inclusion in general. So, those are the domains, the areas, we have been working in if that makes sense?  

Nayantara: That’s a lot of great work going on. Many newcomers and Canadians need support from such programs. Canada prides itself in being multicultural and I think it’s important to have organizations, like CFRAC, doing this type of work. So, when you’re creating these community-based programs to support individuals, I can imagine that there is some research gathering, right? Research to understand what is required, where the gaps are, and what support systems are needing to be put in place. So, how does CFRAC gather its information? Is there a particular process that we can use for other sorts of policies and programs for other non-profits as well? 

Elli: Absolutely, and I'm there with you. Let's not put all the burden on the shoulders of newcomers and racialized communities. Let’s not do that and I think that's a fair point because that is a long and sometimes lonely process, right? You can tell from my accent that I'm a newcomer, right? So, yes, and there's a lot of misinformation out there. We were working on a project on housing and racialized tenants' experiences with housing and one of the stories that kept coming up from newcomers was if there is a disagreement with the landlord, “we're not going to do anything about it because they can have us evicted, they can have us deported, they can have our permanent residency cards canceled”. It's not true. There is a lot of misinformation out there. And I think that's where social services and community organizations can make sure that they advocate on behalf of the individuals under the communities they serve. They can also create resources, educational resources, networks, and communities of support for newcomers and for racialized people.  

Putting the burden on the shoulders of newcomers and racialized people, I think that's a huge mistake. Because as we talked about before with mental health and this new liberal mentality of self-care. We know that it is wrong to put the whole responsibility on the shoulders of the individual when we know it takes a community to keep and to support the well-being, the mental health of community members. It's not the work of one person, right? And the same thing here. That's the same reality here, so I just want to be clear I don't mean to put that burden on the shoulders of racialized people. When I talk about our responsibilities as communities connecting with the politicians, it's more about “oh, that's not my lived experience but I have the privilege. How can I use my power and privilege to advocate for social inclusion?” Yes, posting on social media is good but it's not enough. There is more you can do. 

Yvette: I really liked the point that you made about being more proactive. And going back to the residential schools and the unmarked graves, made me think about the fact that for years, many indigenous communities had been saying that they were there. These discoveries were no shock to them. I also think about the government’s response to this. Why did it take so long for them to do something about it? There just seem to be many challenges to moving these types of conversations forward. With the internet and media, it’s easy to live in a bubble, without understanding the true causes and implications of a lot of these issues. So, how do we overcome these challenges? 

Elli: I've talked with different levels of government. I've done leadership training for the municipal government, I've worked with different government departments, and what comes up is the idea that these community consultations are important. But let's not forget, that unconsciously sometimes we bring that colonial lens, that we go to them, we are the experts, we have all the tools, and they owe us their stories, right? Not seeing that the expertise, the lived experiences of our communities as knowledge. So, I think making sure, in our consultations, that we create equitable processes. This is something that I've told leaders. I said work with community organizations. They already have those connections. Take the time to build trust, work from a place of humility, treat their expertise and stories of communities as knowledge. They don't owe you that. Compensate them for their time, right? So, I think what is important in this process is looking at it from the other side also. Community members elect our representatives to be politicians. When a new incident happens, we react, we share something on social media, and we move on. But usually, most community members don't know how to effectively advocate for inclusion.  

So now, we have all this information, and now what? Now, what can I do as a citizen? How can I communicate? Instead of just posting on social media. How can I communicate my concerns to the elected politicians at the municipal, provincial, and federal levels, right? So, when we talk about education, advocacy, change, I think connecting these pieces together and empowering the general public on, first of all, understanding the history but also seeing the impact and understanding their role, their responsibility, how they can be part of the change and advocate for social inclusion. Connecting the dots and building that capacity is very important. Because basically, if we collectively, not just specific activist groups and community organizations, work together collectively on different levels to advocate for change, voices are louder and stronger.  

Nayantara: Elli, you know I do agree with where you're coming from. I think sometimes, and I speak to this as an immigrant myself, when you're coming to a new country it's not home yet and you feel like a visitor. So, what would you say to these individuals, like myself, who are coming to the country and don't feel like they can actually raise their voice because, as of now, they are still trying to integrate. They don't want to be marginalized and they feel that sometimes if they let people know about how they're feeling and how they all have been marginalized it will only lead to further marginalization. So, what would you say to those individuals? 

Elli: When we talk about policies, first of all, these policies are number one, developed in a vacuum, right? They're usually reactive instead of looking at it with a proactive perspective. Something has happened we have these gaps. Gaps in policies, let's do something about it, and usually, it comes out of the advocacy by equity-seeking groups. So, it is very important that conversations around policies are informed by the communities that those policies will affect. So, community informed and community-based conversations. When it comes to consultations, looking at the policy development cycle basically, right? Sometimes we have the best policymakers, researchers, people who inform politicians as policymakers. The ones who do the research and provide recommendations to politicians. But we should ask: how have you done your work? In terms of consultation, communicating and connecting on a very meaningful, deep level with the communities that are affected by these policies. So, let's take steps before that. Before we get to the policy priorities. Let's think about racism and racialized communities, including indigenous, Black, and other racialized communities here in Canada and in North America. They have been talking about racism as a fundamental issue, as systemic, as being interpersonal, something that has affected their lives in the professional setting, their everyday life. So, how they are affected by micro-inequities. The response to whether racism exists is “no”, “this is not our Canada”, you know? Jumping into denial basically.  

So, let's just look at racism. And I think as community members, as policymakers, as politicians, as members of this society, we need to understand the history. We're throwing these words around but people don't have the same understanding of these terms and concepts. So, in the context of Canada, when we talk about racism, let's look at history. The impact that it has had on indigenous communities, under different racialized communities, the costs of racism for our society, the impact of racism on the educational system. Looking at systems of oppression and how that is intertwined in everything that we do and think about that as a conversation. That conversation needs to be led by racialized people, by a diverse representation and perspectives. From different indigenous communities, from Black communities, from faith-based communities, from newcomers and immigrants who have been here for generations, right? We need to understand that first. We need to understand the complexities of structures of inequity basically. And I think, so far, what I see here is that we have been reactive. An incident happens, we talk about it, you know? There's this conversation on social media, politicians comment on it, community members post about it, and then in the meantime, community organizations and activists are advocating for change. But lets for a second, reflect on our reactions as politicians and everyday citizens: “This is not my Canada”, “thank God Canada is different”, “these are problems at the border”, right? And think about two recent incidents, the murder of a racialized family in London, ON, and when the remains of 250 children were found buried at a former residential school in Kamloops, BC. That’s our Canada. But this does not negate acts of kindness and generosity that happen every day across the country. No, it doesn't! These realities coexist. We need to understand that.  

Yvette: I appreciate your emphasis on the importance of having community voices heard and the mention of the discovery of the unmarked graves. Today, in Saskatchewan, they’ve discovered an even bigger unmarked grave with the remains of 750 children. When we're talking about having the voices of communities at the forefront of our work, what does that look like? Could you tell us how CFRAC is doing that and how you would advise policymakers, teachers, researchers, to do so before even jumping to creating policy priorities? 

Elli: That’s such a great question. Thank you. To be honest with you I'm glad to see that we are more openly addressing these issues and we're talking about individual and collective responsibilities to achieve social inclusion. We're talking racism. Believe it or not, three years ago, it was the “R” word. I remember I was working on and leading a project on creating an anti-racism and human rights resource for youth. We reached out to principals and school admins saying, “Hey, we're working on this project and we have the opportunity to provide free training for students to empower them to build the capacity so that they would be able to identify these issues. They would also be able to respond to and intervene, giving them the language.” I remember the backlash back then, “this is inappropriate for our school. No, we don't want to talk about it.” I remember specifically someone said, “we don't want to talk about the “R” word here. It's not an issue, so why should we talk about it?” So, since June 2020, with the murder of George Floyd, this whole anti-racism movement, all the protests, and the conversations, we are more openly talking about it. That's a good start, right? But there is still a lot of resistance that we've seen. I would say this is superficial engagement just because the topic is trendy. 

Specifically talking about organizations and workplaces. At the organizational level, what I have seen in the past year is that it's not uncommon to see a check box mentality, right? A check box mentality that leads the conversation. This idea that “oh OK! Now, we need an EDI policy or policy statement” or “oh, let's create a new position, an EDI specialist or consultant, and hire a racialized person who is responsible to make this space and all of our practices and policies and surfaces inclusive and equitable.” This is instead of a holistic approach to incorporate equity and inclusion into our practices. I think that what we need to do is pause. Pause and think about ways to embrace a culture of learning and unlearning. We need to understand structures and systems of inequity and oppression. We need to understand how racism functions, how inequities function. So, understanding the systems and structure is very very important but also, let's make sure that we understand the ways we as individuals contribute to upholding this system.  

So, I think you asked me about this shift in culture and mindset. I think the first step is to get people to understand that “oh, these are these are real issues that are fundamental problems that have been part of the history and the reality of this country at a global level, at a national and local level.”  Let's understand the history, the impact, let's reflect on our responsibilities as individuals, residents, neighbors, parents, you know? But, also as professionals, as policymakers, as politicians. I think all of this starts with embracing a culture of learning and unlearning that can lead to accountability. That's what we need I think. 

Yvette: That’s amazing. We’re talking about developing policies or policy priorities that, as you’ve mentioned, put an emphasis on learning and unlearning certain things that we know about race and racism. What do you think should be those key policy priorities that should lead this conversation?  

Elli: So, you know that I have the honor of working with the Centre of Race and Culture, or CFRAC as we call it, a non-profit organization here in Edmonton. Let me tell you just a little bit about our history. So, CFRAC which was formerly known as Northern Alberta Alliance on Race Relations or NARR was established in 1993 when a group of educators and passionate citizens came together to address racism, particularly in schools. So, CFRAC was formed as an initiative of the Edmonton office of the Department of Canadian Heritage to educate the public in the area of race relations and now it has grown to a larger network of community groups and agencies with the purpose of working towards the elimination of racism and discrimination in the region and promoting intercultural understanding.  

So, your question is, “how does this promote equity, diversity, and inclusion?”. The work that we do is grounded in the issues, concerns, and stress in our community and we take an intersectional approach when we engage in a range of work that addresses our key objectives. The first one is educating the public, creating these platforms for meaningful conversations because we know that education is key. It's the first step. It also guides our work in conducting research, compiling data, disseminating the results, etc. Back to the idea of EDI or DIY or now they're using JEDI, you can see those values reflected in the core values of our organization. We are committed to inclusion and equity. It is important for us to create inclusive and equitable policies, programs and practices, but also advocate the same values in our interactions with funders, stakeholders, governments, agencies, community groups. So, it's embedded in every aspect of our work.  

The other piece when it comes to inclusion, equity, and diversity is that we embrace our community. The idea is that we bring diverse perspectives together to build relationships, right? We collaborate with organizations and groups in our community that have similar values when it comes to social inclusion and equity and our programs are informed by the needs and the realities of the communities that we represent, and we serve. It is, I think, having that anti-racism and that intersectional lens. What happens is that it puts the idea of social inclusion and intercultural understanding at the forefront of everything that we do. So, basically, we want to make sure, internally and externally, we practice these values. We also want to initiate and lead these conversations on social inclusion and equity. But also encourage the general public's participation in social change. So, we talk about how we do advocacy, what are our responsibilities as individuals, and what are our collective responsibilities in order to create and maintain social inclusion.  

Nayantara: Just leaping off of that, we’re understanding that CFRAC really advocates for a shift in culture away from the one we currently have, which, at its core, can be racist and discriminatory. Over the last few years, there have been various social movements and protests occurring around the world, and I think this has created a unique opportunity for us to really start a conversation and reform the current discriminatory mindset. With all the extensive “on the ground” experience that you have gathered interacting with an incredibly wide range of people, what do you think is necessary for us to truly see such a shift in culture and mindset?) 

Wrap-Up 

Yvette: Amazing, thank you for your time, thank you for allowing us to pick your brain and learn from your work and experiences with CFRAC. It’s been great 45 minutes chatting with you. 

Nayantara: Yes, I must say, I come from, well, I'm still starting my career, I'm very early on in it. But, for the three years that I've started, I've been in NGOs and it’s just a world that I think is so underrated because we really do impact the lives of individuals. And I can only hope that one day I'm in a place where you are, making so much change and being so compassionate. You really are a role model for so many of us. 

Elli: Thank you, you're very kind. Thank you for reaching out. I really enjoyed our conversation. 

Yvette: Thank You Elli for joining us today and sharing your insights on how to best engage with the community in order to fight racism. A big thank YOU to our audience for tuning in. Having listened to our conversation with Elli, we hope you’ve gained additional insight on how to create more inclusive and equitable policies, with community voices at the forefront. That’s a wrap for today. Don’t forget to join in our next conversation with litigator, activist, and past Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada, Alex Neve as we continue exploring how policies can be the great equalizer. Yvette and Nayantara out.